Ibarra boards Elías’s boat and as they travel, their discussion veers toward the philosophical. Elías wants Ibarra to lead the way toward reforms for the people. Specifically, he wants Ibarra to assert the rights of the people to the government and church leaders. Ibarra is reluctant, as he feels that reform must happen gradually and slowly—otherwise, the country’s economics would be upended and more people would be harmed than helped in the long run. The men remain at an impasse, despite Elías’s attempts at persuasion.

Elías and Ibarra’s conversation shifts to the former’s family, a story that contains much suffering. While Elías himself is educated, he comes from a line of people who have been severely oppressed by the government; Elías’s sister was killed and dumped into the lake. Elías has been a man on the move for much of his adult life, primarily to escape his family’s reputation. The details of Elías’s life do not change Ibarra’s mind, and when Elías returns to Captain Pablo, he tells him that Ibarra will not support political reform and that he will join the subversive group’s plan to attack the barracks.